Coupe bodies Next ?

[stoo23]

Gee Whizz Guys !!,....From One who has been Blamed for Hassling People,..Let's Lighten up a bit !!

Hey,..I'm ALL OK with ANY/ALL of the IRRA or D3 Rules,..(To be Honest, perhaps we Should have adopted the D3 Monica and concept completely),..but we Haven't.

There Have to be Some Rules,..and to be Honest, The IRRA and D3 rules Are Written Pretty well and do a pretty good job delineating what Is and Isn't Possible.

Kinda wish I'd Never asked the Question !!,..lol,..I should have just gone and had a Look see myself.

To be Honest,..I kinda just figured,..as the 'Class' IS in effect is Still Growing,..(or declining if Numbers are anything to go by,..lol), I was just thinking sticking GT bodies on Our CanAm Chassis, would/could just 'appeal' to some or a few more,..as Many really Like GT type bodies and I guess, also,..Just for a Change, it would be good to see something Other than a Brace of Ti-22's Hooning around.

As there is ONLY a 10 Gram difference anyway,..Let's Not get Too Anal about it,..in fact My comments about the Lack of the 100 gram limit came from Barney Poyner's comments on SlotBlog,...

As to there Not being Any High Speed tracks about,..Hmmm,..actually that 'Thing' at HSC, is actually One of the Fastest tracks in the World for it's Length !!
PLUS,..there is a Pretty damn good Kingleman in Melbourne and Two VERY Good and Very Fast Kings !!
Much like at BPR, which arguably has the Fastest King in the World,..where Shorter Much Lighter cars Would Work.
Guys like Duran Trujillo and Doug Mathes seem to be capable of driving Very Light cars Very Fast !!

In some ways, it's Odd that there IS a 10 Gram difference in the IRRA Eules,..Wonder why they did it ??

[hutch--]

Stooo,

You would have loved the 350 footer set up at the Sydney Showground in 1966, it was the size track you could use a GLOBE screamer on. Wound 36Ds went pretty good as well. Then there was the beautiful track in Brunswick/Coberg built by the same people who built both the Kings Cross and Hurlstone Park tracks in Sydney with the 80 feet straight and 60 degree bank. (Pizzas up the road were great).

ALA California in the 60s, David Rittie used to bring back photos of these > 300 foot monsters where little cans used to go BANG. Thingies with single sided wings and very big motors were the action there. Surviving tracks are pigmies in comparison, a King track is a small medium speed track with tight turns. The HSC track is of similar corner speed and radius.

RE: Rule fiddling, I am with Keith here, apply the KISS principle or KISS your arse goodbye to Retro racing.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it etc ....

Regards,

hutch at movsd dot com

[SlotBaker]

Thanks for your thoughts and comments guys.

Yeah, I like the KISS approach as well, but the fact of the matter is that if there are no rules, it potentially becomes a competition between who is prepared to spend the most money, and/or who are the best builders/racers.

Usually the best builders/racers will always win, but the rest of us has a chance if there are limits (rules) on what those guys can do. It narrows the gap, and maintains some interest for probably the bulk of racers who make it popular.

So, if you don't have too many critisisms of the above, then determining a set of rules that covers the technical limits and the spirit of the class becomes very subjective, and difficult not to leave loop holes that people like to explore.

We have the luxury (maybe you don't see it that way) of utilising an existing format that works elsewhere. So why not use it?

It's not making rules for rules sake, it's attempting to maintain the original concept and spirit of racing pro type slot cars similar to those raced prior to 1969, without the complications/cost of high power motors.

When the Aussie Retro regs were first published and handed out, there was an overwhelmingly positive response because everyone now had something concrete to work to. There were no gripes about this or that, and cars were built, we had fun. Biggest hassle in the beginning was getting bodies, but that didn't stop us.

What's wrong with that?

Now we want to move to another body/class. There are regs for that class.
Stuff all different to the Can-Am, what's the problem?

There was talk of going to open wheelers. What were we going to do there? Use the same Can-Am chassis? Doubt it. We will need a set of regs. IRRA has it.

KISS, use the regs available to us. They work.

It would be great if some of the interested track owners chimed in here, your input would be invaluable.

Please give us your thoughts. The more the better.

[stoo23]

Het Steve's,..Please Understand, I am Not in Any way criscizing, the Current Rules OR Situation,..OR Having a New GT Set of Rules.

Like I said,...AND in Fact as The Post was Initially Titled,.."Coupe BODIES' Next ??,..so being 'Picky',..lol,..That WAS what I was asking,..ie;, are we going to run Coupe Bodies in the Next Series,..Not,..are we going to Change classes?

I would be Happy to build and Race F1's,..BUT,..(and Obviously NO, we will Not use the CanAm Regs,..), but we Know that means Many New cars Have to be Built, bodies are needed etyc, and the Racing Will be Much Harder and More dramatic !!

With the Cleass still growing, I would Personally be Loathe to 'Force', ANY Change, which disinterested any potential Racers.

Heck I'm Quite Happy to Just Continue on with CanAm Bodies !!

If we want KISS, then That sure is KISS,..Simple !

The GT Bodies on the 'CanAm' cars,..was Just an Idea/Question,..you Know,..simply for a Change,..without it in Any way requiring Anything like Rules adoption/compliance etc.

I Can understand and support the concept of Consistency etc and therefore had 'Imagined' that if we were to adopt an F1 class, then it Likewise would be Based on the IRRA rules.

For Absolute Simplicities Sake then,..Let's NOT Race GT Bodies in the Next Series,..Then there IS NO Change In ANY Way and No one will Feel Disadvantaged/compromised,..and in that I AM Completely Happy !!

Perhaps then, We Should Run them on the 'CanAm cars for the "Enduro",..as,..as far as I am aware,..CanAm cars Never Ran in Enduros !!!

People seem to be having all sorts of "Issues" at the Moment !!,..Heck I Honestly Don't Have ANY !!

I think the Racing has been GREAT !!,..and Have been enjoying it Immensely and More than Happy for it to continue Just as it is,..Getting More people to Race as well is even better,...

Anyway,..Glad that's Over!,..Phew,..the currently available bodies aren't that great anyway,..

[hutch--]

The thing I am having trouble with is the notion of a new set of rules for every body type, we have a working set of rules that has been used with the Can Am cars, why mess it up with a new set of rules for Coupes, then a new set of rules for sedans then a new set of rules for open wheelers ?

Coupe bodies fit sports car chassis so there is no need to change the rules, as an appendage to the rules for sedans and open wheelers if it is needed set a minimum wheelbase for sedans and a set of additional rules to cover open wheel cars for stuff like exposed chassis parts etc ...

KISS literally is "keep it simple stupid", a plethora of different rules for different bodies is a disaster that attacks the simplicity and low cost of racing retro and forces the interested party to have to keep a wider range of chassis available, different wheel sizes, gears, weights etc ... This is THE formula to KISS your arse goodbye to retro racing.

This is my recommendation for a comprehensive set of rules for retro racing, keep as much as possible the same for simplicity purposes, widths, weights wheel sizes etc ... add only the minimum necessary for sedans and open wheelers and absolutely do not change the rules for coupe bodies.

This is what NSWMRRA B grade rules were about in 1969, a single comprehendable set of rules that everyone raced under without the musical chairs that crept into the scene later.

Regards,

hutch at movsd dot com

PS: stooo, don't lose your sense of humour, thats part of what made slot car racing fun back in the old days.

[SlotBaker]

Hutch, Yep, I know where you are coming from, and I used to think the same way by having a basic set of generic regs then have specific variants for each technical feature that differs from one class to the other, and appendices for bodies, etc.

In fact I helped another friend put together a set of regs for model car racing in that exact way, and it worked ok for the short time that we had a track.

The problem that was emerging was that with each new class we started up, we usually added another appendix, and occasionally needed to amend the generic set as well.

I originally thought that the D3 and IRRA regs were dumb, in the same way that you do.

I changed my thinking about 12~18 months ago when there was a thread on Auslot where a "National" Slot Car association was discussed, and part of that discussion included looking at regulations. After suggesting that a set of std (generic) regs with appendices should work, I set about consolidating all of the published slot car regs (both 1/32 & 1/24) that I could find, plus those that people sent to me.

After many hours with a spread sheet, I narrowed down what I thought might be workable basics, and when I looked at all of the other variables for the classes, they would have been more confusing to have as appendices, and having to refer back to another document for the basics.

I concluded that if you keep all regs for a particular class in one document that consists of one, maybe 2 pages, it would be much simpler to read and understand.

It's not a matter of chopping and changing rules as I see it, it's a matter of making it simpler for people to understand and work with, and regulate.

And yes, we must keep our sense of humor and fun, otherwise, what's the point?

[stoo23]

Hey Steve,

Well (Personally), I Don't Have ANY Issues with That as an Idea,..Especially, as the Various Classes Were For Scratchbuilders and as Noted, D3 being the Originators, Did and Do have slightly different rules for the Various Classes,..Mainly to encompass a Number of Different Chassis Types and to Allow for Other Motor choices, therefore they have Retro Pro etc.
The Bodies, in 'The States' simply delineate the Various classes somewhat.

I don't have Any problems, with whatever rules,..and as you know it IS difficult coming up with Rules that 'Suit' everyone, with all Explained Clearly.
Initially a decision was made to 'Adopt' the IRRA rules,..and as all the Hard work Has been done already, I see no problem in adopting a set of clearly defined and understood set of rules instead of re inventing the wheel.

As far as I'm aware F1 rules were always slightly different and in both the IRRA and D3 they Are, compared to the Other classes, Overall width being one.

I have No Issue with That either, as, Once again, MY interest in all this 'Retro' stuff, was Because of the Scartchbuilding,..A chance to build cars like I used to unlike So many of the Other current classes requiring 'Commercially available' Everything !!

As the Original Idea (in the States), also was basically a Class For Scratchbuilders, and came from a Bunch of Old Buddies just wanting to build cars like THEY used to race And Keep it Simple,..it has Grown and GROWN, perhaps somewhat Disproportionally in it's Overall Popularity in both bringing Older and Current racers into the Racing as well as youngsters.

Whilst that is great,..it is also perhaps a dilemna, as both here and overseas slot racing was at a somewhat Low ebb and Retro has in many ways 'Enlivened' it, causing people to perhaps expect More of it than what was originally envisaged or conceived.

Personally, I'm happy to Follow what They have done and as We have Done, I'm Not in any way 'Fussed' by the rules being Yankee rules,..they are just simply, a set of rules to follow as a guide line to constructing a legal and acceptable car and should also allow a Newbie Scratch builder Plenty of 'Reference material, as the cars on the Sites from overseas, will be the Same and should give them plenty of ideas, especially for the Victorians, as They Race on Tracks like they have in the US.

Keep in Mind, the Originators didn't really Need rules, as they were Good Racing friends and all were building the same style cars,..for FUN.

Initially when I read the rules,..I 'Squawked' as I thought Gee it will Limit Creativity,..BOY was I Wrong !!

Personally I don't see Retro's as a Slot Car Racing Saviour OR even as a Newbie Class,..the Fact that the Cars ARE Good for Relative Newbies etc is Great, but also creates a Problem as to accesibility of a suitable car.

The Very 'Notion' of "Buying" a Pre Built Car is sort of 'Counter' to the Core Ideal of the Whole Class, but I Digress,..

I guess the Point zIs Really, there is 'Bugger All' difference between the Two IRRA Classes Anyway, and it is Obvious even to Me from afar that the Yanks run the Same chassis in Both Classes over there as well,..so Really, What IS the Problem,..WHO has a Race Ready car that is effective around HSC that is Under 100 Grams anyway ???

I Like the Classes And the Rules, as they Do cover an era of Real Car racing that I really Did enjoy,..there Are Cars that came only 1 or 2 years later that also would be Cool, BUT within the framework of the concept, Aren't elligible, as basically All of the classes are emulating BOTH Cars and Chassis similar in style of construction to what was raced Back then,...Upto 1969/70.

Anyway,..Look,..I'm NOT Angry, NOT Annoyed, NOT Peee'd Off, or Anything, with the Racing, with the Cars, the Bodies, the People , the Rules or anything, and am HOPING Not to Lose my sense of Humour over This or anything else unless Everyone Else continually loses Their sense of Humour and Stops turning up.

If we all agree to Race a particular car/bosy/class under whatever rules, that define them, that Cause me to have to 'Build a New Chassis, that's Great, that's what a scratchbuilders class should be about, like having to build a New car for different tracks.

I'm looking forward to maybe having to build some New cars for the Newer tracks starting to 'Sprout' !!,..lol

You Know,..I keep looking at the photos on Keith Tanaka's site, with all the Originators of the Class, Like Bryan Warmack, Paul Sterrett, Mike Steube, John Cukras, John 'Tore' Andersen etc, etc, and they all seem like a Really Nice Friendly Bunch of Guys, that are just simply Happy Having FUN Racing each other with I would Venture Cars which Probably would Not even Need to be Tech'd, as ALL of them Would Build Withtin the 'Spirit' of the Idea and Not Need to Make sure No one was Cheating, the Smiles, obvious Fun and Generous attitude shown by those at BPR etc are Exactly what seemed like could Happen Here, as a Lot of the Racers, were similarly of the same era and were a cordial and friendly Bunch and had and Have known each other for a very long time.

At the Mometn, there seems to be more and more F1's turning up, so maybe F1's Might be an option to Run,..but even though I am Keen, I think F1's Will be scary, as accidents Will be nastier than they are Now,..All those exposed Wheels !!!,..lol

So,..seriously, I wish I hadn't mentioned it, as it has caused FAR TOO Much Discusion already, for what was a Very simple Request for Information about whether we were Simply Going to Sling Coupe Bodies Onto Our already existing CanAm Chassis for the Next series for No other reason than I wanted to Find and Paint some suitable bodies,..Either CanAm or GT,..I HOnestly, Honestly Don't care either Way, and is also Upto Many Other than ourselves to decide,..

I Had hoped this Forum would Provide a place for friendly discourse about the 'Bourgeoning class',..a place for All the racers to Meet, exchange ideas information etc,..like SlotBlog,..but that hasn't happened,..Yet,..and I guess may Not.

On a personal note, I have thoroughly enjoyed ALL the racing this class has caused, Every Race has been great,..I have absolutely NO Issues with anyone, about anything, it has all been Great racing and at both HSC and Area3 has had a relaxed friendly, yet extremely competitive atmosphere, with some really great drivers.

I'm all for if it ain't broke don't fix it !! I'm just having difficulty understanding which Part is Broke anyway,...ROFL

Anyway,..I'm Off to Measure up and Weigh some 10gram chunks of Lead for my 'Micro Lite' Chassis,..
and see if I can complete the coupla cars I have underway and Just in Case I'll paint Both a CanAm AND a GT Body,..

See Ya

[hutch--]

Stooo,

Now you have me worried, this IS a friendly discussion between people who all know each other and the general idea was to give Kingy a hand managing the rules for retro so that the class would continue to thrive rather than go downhill as it is at the moment.

The whole idea of doing something NEW and DIFFERENT was that is IS NEW and DIFFERENT. Going down the same tired old route heading towards yet another class of wamp wamp racing has a predictable result, failure.

Now in part the stated intent of the formulators of American D3 racing is where we need to start. People like Steube and Cukras have "been there, done that" and are supporting this style of racing because its FUN, not some grim desperate championship trying to determine the champion of the world.

A constructors class with the option of kits like Parma and Warmack is a pretty good starting point that bypasses the "gee whiz", "high tech", "unobtainium" exotica that in part is responsible for the collapse of slot car racing.

The era that I came out of with big prizemoney, massive entries, monster tracks and viable professional sponsorship will never happen again, the alternative is to adapt to the new environment and get the best out of it.

We can help Kingy out with some ideas, opinions and our own experience and that is what my contribution has been. I opt for absolute minimum rule changes from the existing Can Am so that most people with retro cars can just change a body and race in the next class.

Regards,

hutch at movsd dot com

PS : Good luck with the new car.

[stoo23]

SORRY !!

I REALLY Thought that was EXACTLY what I was both Asking initially and Have Been saying ALL Along !!

Are we Putting Coupe Bodies on Our CanAm Cars,..????

It turns Out the answer is apparently,..YES.

I was Not and Have Not been trying to or attempting to 'Change' anything !!
I had heard 'Rumour' of a Possible 'Change' of "Body Style" and was Only asking,..to 'Confirm' the Rumour,..Nothing More,..Nothing Less.

I am Seriously having Trouble, with WHY this should actually even be an Issue requiring This Much discussion !!

I (perhaps like some Others), had (stupidly I admit) assumed that the Rules were in fact Identical Anyway,..NOT that it should even be a consideration,..because Once again it was about Coupe "Bodies",..Not a Coupe "Class",..sigh,..

I'm Sorry guys,..Perhaps in My 'Vain' attempts to Use this forum to try and Keep People informed,..Outside of those that Frequent the Raceway,..it was just an Open Question, Hopefully to have been 'Confirmed' by Wayne or James,..just so people knew what was going on.

As to Popularity?,..well, people Like GT bodies, so I must admit, even I figured that might attract some people,..maybe?,..who knows, perhaps NOT !!

You see,..I Really Don't Care either way,..Truthfully,..I couldn't Give a $%&*, I am MORE than Happy, for the Class to just Continue as it has been, with absolutely NO change whatsoever.
There Is Not and should Not have been Any altercation/argument,..it WAS a Question ??
AND,..I am NOT in Control of what Happens anyway !!

I'm Not upset with anyone, I just wanna race! and have FUN,..like we have been.

My apologies for apparently, once again offending/disturbing people from a simple Post,..can't imagine what the response would be like if the initial post was meant to inflame !!

Please,...this is pointless,...,I MUST be 'missing' the subtlety of it or something,...
The Next race,..is simply, just that,..a Race,..with CanAm bodies

[keith]

I'm with Hutch, if you feel the need to change to Coupe Bodies fine, lets not tinker with other rules which will make the class more labour intensive. Racing slotcars is way more fun than endlessly working on them.

Keith

[stoo23]

B***** Hell !!
You DO Understand, that this was Only for the Next 6 races and Purely for those attending HSC,..(which was Only 10 People at Last count !!) don't you?,..(IF it even happens at all Now),..There is NO Intention to Change the Current Retro Racing in Any way,..

As Far as I am aware,...ALL Future races Especially those where interstate people may be in attendance, Will be for CanAm Bodies !!

So far,..there has been NO CHANGE Whatsoever to ANY Rules and the Numbers have been dropping Each Race,..For Many Reasons,..one of them NOT being because things Keep changing,..Obviously.

I Really wish this Thread was Closed,..Locked,..Deleted and Put into the "It should Never have Happened Bin",..OK ??

There seems to Be a GIANT Mountain Growing out of a Pimple here !!!

I am Now going to Ring WayneB and absolutely 'Pester' him into Making SURE we Do NOT Race Coupe Bodies OK !!!!

It was NOT My Idea in the First Damn Place !!!,..Is That Understood?

Again,..apart from the BODIES,..for 6 Damn Races,..NOTHING is Changing,..FFS !!!

Please! Let's Move On !!

[hutch--]

Stooo,

The only person getting upset here is you and I don't understand why. Its common for forum topic to wander slightly so there was nothing wrong with your original question, its just that the topic evolved.

I am more than happy to try and give Kingy a hand in terms of the rules and the more feedback he can get the easier the task should be.

What we in fact need is MORE DISCUSSION, not less as it gets more people involved and better reflects the wider consensus of people interested in racing retro. I would like to see both James and Plucka involved as well as they have to put the races on, carry the stock to support retro and as often is the case with Wayne, build some of the cars as well.

The ASCRA forum is exactly the place to discuss these things as it is a national forum and can be accessed by more people than anything local to one track or area. Done properly and with some consensus retro racing has the potential to take off and be popular among slot car racers and dealing with its considerations is best done at the national level in a forum like this one.

Regards,

hutch at movsd dot com

PS: You think this is complicated, you should have been a member of the NSWMRRA comittee with the crap that used to go down there. The open class B grade rules surviced for far longer because enough people fought against the special interests that wanted to tailor them to their own advantage.

[jcol56]

Message from the track owner:
There are no rule changes with regards to the underpan and assembly for the next round of Aussie Retro. All we are changing is the body style to coupes. If there are to be any rule changes, these will be submitted and voted on at the end of the year.
Thank you,
James.

[stoo23]

Thank you James

[hutch--]

Simple ain't it.